Articles

Gay and Lesbian Parishioners speak to Bishop Steenson

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At a forum on April 25, 2007, St. Michael's invited Bishop Jeffrey Steenson to fulfill a portion of the Anglican Communion's directive to listen to the experience of gay and lesbian Christians. He did so, and the recording of this event is available here. It was a sometimes emotional evening, but always respectful. For the first time, some of our members were able to express the pain and struggle they had lived with all their lives. We pray that it will contribute to a movement of God's grace in our church at this point in history.

The recording ran out just before Fr. Brian Taylor made a statement saying "There are same-gender couples in this room that I have known for many years, and I have seen just as much of God's grace and holiness in their love for one another as I have seen in heterosexual couples. There are people whom we are unable to present for ordination who are called and qualified for sacramental ministry. Before I retire as Rector of this parish, I want to celebrate holy unions for these couples at this altar, and I want to present qualified candidates for ordination from this parish who happen to be gay or lesbian."

Transcript of the proceedings:

After an opening prayer, the Moderator (Rector’s Warden Bob Stice) began.

MODERATOR:

Welcome to all of you. Thank you for being here. Welcome to you, Bishop. Thank

you for being here. One of the things that we’re aware of is that

A) your time is very valuable;

B) most places you go these days, everybody wants a piece of you,

and you probably were hoping that this would be different.

(CONGREGATIONAL LAUGHTER)

And, I assure you that it, it will be. We have been couching this for several weeks

now as a listening process, and we’re serious about that. Amongst the information

that exists, as you’re aware of, the study guide for the Lambeth Listening Exercise

next year. A couple of points that are made in that are important, I think,

and those are that listening happens when

A) there is a common place that we all come to share our opinions, and

B) when there is a SAFE ground for people to speak, and for people to be heard. I think all of us are aware today that in the Church, as well most other institutions in our society, there is a lot more talking AT each other, sometimes YELLING at each other, than there is listening.

So a part of what we want to model is that this can be one of those beginnings of the

listening process in the true sense, and that’s why we invited you here, and we’re

thankful that you accepted our invitation. As you know, at St. Michael’s, a lot of

people like you. We haven’t voted lately, but I think you probably would still get the

majority of the vote. You’re among friends, and we love you and respect you as our

chief pastor and as our bishop. So, we’re delighted to have this chance to have this

conversation with you. And at St. Michael’s, we have a reputation for being a

diverse group of people. We do have a few odd characters, but once you get past the

clergy staff, and the rector’s warden, and maybe Pepper, everybody else are pretty

normal, you know, healthy folks. And, so…so this is as formal as it’s going to get.

What we really want to have is a listening process and a conversation, you know,

with you. And also for you to have the opportunity without other pressures, to

really just be able to listen to the folks who are here, and to what’s on their hearts.

There are no rules; there’s no agenda. Brian has, has already told you to please at

least observe the procedure of going to a microphone. That’s not to be formal; it’s

purely so that everybody can HEAR you. And , umm, if you want to ask a question

with your statement, then please ASK it in a very direct way. And, you are free to

respond in, in ummm…in any way that you see fit to share with us, any of your

thoughts about these things, too. The only other restriction is that we feel like we do

have to put a time limit on this, and so we agreed that four hours will probably be…

(CONGREGATIONAL LAUGHTER)

Well, that will just get us past the ten o’clock news, and so you don’t have to

worry about being…you know, Hmmm? Yeah, just for once. No, we have

agreed that the time limit for this will be an hour and a half. Uhh, so, if, you know,

if we are still going strongly, I will bring us to a close at that point. So, with

that…I open the floor, we want to kind of change the process here…in that

normally we would ask YOU to make a statement, and…and, instead, we want you

to feel free just to listen. SO, the floor’s open! (Other people can’t hear you in the,

uh, yeah!)

PERSON #1:

First of all, Bishop, I had the very great privilege of actually kissing you in, uh,

Taos, when you came up for the St. James Dedication when they had the dedication

of their new, the groundbreaking,

BISHOP:

Right.

PERSON #1:

and a very pleasant woman came up who knew you and kissed you on the left cheek.

And I said, “Well, you’ll give us an equal opportunity, won’t you?” And, so you let

me kiss you on your RIGHT cheek. So, that gave me a very, very good impression

of you at that time. However, the reason that I’m here, as so many of us are, the

conundrum that’s facing this Church right now, and a lot of it has to do with gay

issues. So, my comment, and I jotted it down a little bit, so it would be succinct

here. Many years ago, there was a film, GUESS WHO’S COMING TO DINNER,

and I think probably most of the people in this group here have seen it. In the film,

Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy have just seen who came to dinner, Sidney

Poitier. Katherine Hepburn, in her usual fashion, was very flustered and very

liberal in trying to know what to do. And, Spencer Tracy in the film said: “If these

young people had half the love that WE had when WE met and courted, then I give

them my blessing!” The point that I’M making is a lot of gay couples have a

tremendous amount of love in their union. I think the fallacy nowadays is to

misinterpret same-gender attraction as focusing too much on genital similarities and

not the kind of love that exists. I think if people could recognize that many of the

relationships that exist with same-gendered partners have as much love as you and

Debbie, your wife, do. Keeping that in mind, I think it’s a very sacred union. The

fact is, a few years ago, they used a euphemism, “to make love.” The body is sacred,

as far as I’m concerned, and the best and most wonderful way of expressing one’s

love, is through MAKING love, manifesting and sharing of the body. What I find so

difficult is to have people say that that is not acceptable. And, it’s very, very

disconcerting; not only disconcerting and insulting to the sacredness of my body,

but also everybody else. And I think really that’s all I wanted to say, is

unions have to be focused on the love that can exist within them, was that really to

focus on the LOVE that exists, and the love that can exist with the adopted children,

the children that are being presented to the world today. I don’t expect a response

to this, it’s just a statement that I think people can focus on the relationships, and

not necessarily the sexual aspects.

MODERATOR:

Thank you.

PERSON #2:

Good evening.

Bishop Steenson, clergy, parishioners and guests: My

name is _____. I’m 63 years old, and I came out of the closet, which to me means

recognizing who I truly was as a person, and am. That’s when I was 30 years old,

and I call myself a late bloomer. I was baptized and raised Lutheran. My

grandfather and uncles were Lutheran pastors. When I met _____, I was 45.

There she is. She was baptized and raised as a strict Roman Catholic, and her

paternal grandfather was a Wesleyan minister. We have been together for nearly

19 years, and in 1990 we had a Holy Union ceremony in New York City. We joined

St. Michael’s Episcopal Church to be in a place of educated spiritual understanding,

tolerance and inclusion. One of the most important things that I’ve learned from

marching in many gay parades across the country; that’s NO ONE, no individual,

no institution, no government, no church, nor bishop nor pope,

NO ONE…through neglect, name-calling, false judging, ignorance, hate or fear,

NO ONE can take God away from me, or anyone, because we were born gay,

lesbian, bisexual or transgendered. The sad fact is that…the sad fact is that many

folks are vulnerable enough to believe leaders who say that they can and will do

just that. Keep God for the very few and not for everyone. I think I know how

Jesus felt when He dragged the Cross in the street. Beaten and abandoned, people

hurled insults, spat and threw stones, because He upset the status quo. People are

doing the same thing to the gay community. I have worked as an advocate for social

and civil rights with LUTHERANS CONCERNED and EPISCOPAL INTEGRITY.

I created a group named LAVENDER HEIGHTS in upper Manhattan, New York.

I served on the PFLAG (PARENTS AND FRIENDS OF LESBIANS AND GAYS)

Board in Albuquerque for 5 years, always working against the negative attitudes of

fear of those who are different. Shunned, kicked out, rejected, denied the

Sacraments, that’s what ____ would say, because of false teachings of the Church.

For over 15 years here at St. Michael’s, _____ and I have found a church home. It

is a place where we fully participate in worship. And, as servants on the vestry, as a

altar server, chalice bearers, lectors, officers and ushers, we are ALL welcome at

this table. We are not castaways; we are faithful, active members of God’s loving

family. My job as a librarian on the second floor of the Albuquerque Downtown

Main Library involves working with the homeless, mentally challenged, and the

disenfranchised of everyday life. I look into their eyes, call them by name, and

I know I am looking into the face of Christ. I would ask that you would do the same

for me, my partner ___, the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered members

of St. Michael’s and All Angels, the Rio Grande Diocese, and everywhere. Civil

rights and religious freedom have always been an issue. Jesus invited the Gentiles,

the women, the unwanted widows and orphans, the outcasts to join Him in His quest

for love and peace for everyone. The Episcopal Church has an opportunity to stand

tall in its support and inclusion of ALL people, out of love for all humanity. Thank

you.

MODERATOR:

Thank you very much.

(CONGREGATIONAL APPLAUSE)

PERSON #3:

Bishop, we were wondering if you had any questions for us? As a, as a couple

together, uh, for 19 years, actually when we were, when we had our ceremony, uh,

19 years ago, the Presbyterian minister couldn’t have the bishop approve it. So we

had our Holy Union ceremony with our family, but it wasn’t really sanctified per se.

BISHOP:

I don’t understand. It was…I couldn’t hear the last thing you said. Say the

last sentence you said.

PERSON #3:

Uhh, we were, had a pastor, a Presbyterian pastor, …

BISHOP:

Right.

PERSON #3:

…perform our Holy Union rites with our family present, but his bishop would not

sign the paper. So, this was 19 years ago.

BISHOP:

Mm-hmm.

PERSON #3:

And, we stand here before you 19 years later, asking, you know, for the same thing,

I guess. And we’re wondering if you had any questions for us personally, or, you

know, in general about relationships that persist beyond…uh, I don’t know what

the right word is, I’m sorry.

BISHOP:

Well, one thing I would like to say is that it’s hard to have a conversation like that

with so many people listening in. I think the Anglican Church, the

Episcopal Church, has always had a magnificent tradition, a pastoral tradition, that

we’re, we’re so in danger of losing, because everywhere you turn, people are

yelling and screaming at each other; we’ve politicized the Church at almost every

level. And, as a pastor, I’d want to sit down and talk with you all privately and

ask you a question like that. I mean, that’s the first thing *I* would do in a

situation like that. So…I’m not sure…I feel extraordinarily uncomfortable

asking you a question in public.

PERSON #3:

I didn’t mean to make you feel…

BISHOP:

No, no, no…I’m just telling you that just as a pastoral question…so I want to listen

a little bit more, I think, before I ask those questions.

PERSON #3:

Thank you very much.

BISHOP:

You’ll have to stand. It’s real hard to hear. I may come and sit right with you.

PERSON #4:

My friend and I…Excuse me, Your Honor, I mean, Bishop.

Bishop Steenson, my name is _____. I’m a parishioner here at St. Michael’s.

I’m a lifelong resident of Albuquerque. I have lived in this community, obviously,

all my life. I practice law here; I have raised, am raising 2 children here. And, I

didn’t actually come tonight with the intention of making a statement, because I

hadn’t had time to prepare a statement. But _____’s courage moved me to scribble

some notes out, and I’d like to, just share a few things with you if I could. The

first thing I want to share is my profound respect for you as a clergyperson, and for

your office in this Diocese. And you earned my respect primarily in the manner

with which you came into this moment in time, embracing without endorsing this

parish, and I don’t mean without endorsing this parish’s views or stands. You know

what I mean.

BISHOP:

I, I love you. I like being here. I love being with you.

PERSON #4:

Or, as my kids used to say, “You’re my new best friend.”

And, this is a digression, but one thing that I am aware of, is that a bishop who does

not KEEP an open heart, and continue to work at having an open mind, and the

effect is to polarize the diocese. So that people of like minds or like sentiments

become concentrated in one or two parishes. And then people of the OTHER end of

the spectrum become concentrated. And then, people who are not particularly

social or political, or committed to one kind of social issue or another, sort of

flounder around. And, one of my hopes when you became bishop was that that

would “die back,” and that that would wind up…that we will wind up a parish with

people who are not as flaming liberal as I am, for example, would feel completely

comfortable in having a dialogue with me. I want to share a few points

with you in addition to that. I can’t help but assume that you are shaped by the

culture in which you grew up, as was I, which is relatively similar. I grew up in

Catholic schools. I grew up believing…being taught and believing, like I believe in

oxygen, that I was created in God’s own image, that God had me in mind when I

was conceived, and that God loved and cherished me with all my dings and flaws,

exactly as I was created. And, I’ve never ever moved from that belief. I am not one

of the people chronicled in the book STRANGER AT THE GATE who anguished

over a church that was telling me, once I came to terms with myself, that I was no

good, that I was sinful, that I could not BE loved by God unless I denied one integral

element of myself; I just never bought it. But I did grow up in the times, and there

isn’t one of us here, gay or straight, or whatever, who did not internalize

homophobia. How could we not? How could we not have internalized racism,

fight as we do? Fight as we do, cognitively in our actions, to dampen that effect, of

the years in which we grew up. When I grew up, the words and the concepts

associated with homosexuality just weren’t on the table. But when I finally made

sense out of MY lack of success with boyfriends, and my, my heart, my heart

attractions. I moved immediately to the conclusion that something was wrong, but

it wasn’t me. Because I was being honest, as honest as I was capable to in my

relationships. Not that there were very many; please don’t misunderstand.

(CONGREGATIONAL LAUGHTER)

And, now there are none, so…I did act, though, on my own internalized

homophobia. It took me until I was in my 30’s to say I’m not just a neutral. I am

more gay than straight., and I’m entitled to a life. But even then, I selected someone

very like myself. Middle-class, professional, well-educated, well-spoken, pleasing-

looking…somebody I could take home to Dad, uh…And, I just wanted …I felt

normal, and I wanted to be normal, I wanted way before this issue was on my

consciousness…to be a parent. I mean, there are some people on the planet who

knew from the time they were a sentient human being, that that was what they

needed to do and were gifted to do. And, I was one such person. So my partner and

I adopted two children from Russia in the early ‘90’s, uhh, both of them had what

WE considered to be a relatively minor birth defect, cleft lip and palate. A birth

defect which, in Russia, would condemn them to a life in institutions for mentally

defectives. And certain death from prostitution at 16 when they were dumped out.

And, what I have now are 2 healthy, happy, sassy teenage girls with a lot of attitude.

And, you know what I think, based on , on, on raising these kids, is when their peers

are sitting in your chair, or any of these chairs, or in a coffee shop in Oklahoma,

would be…they are gonna say, “What was that all about?” You know, I went into

elementary schools armed with articles and statistics, and you know blah-blah-blah.

And, every teacher I encountered…now, granted, Albuquerque is a pocket of “live

and let live” in a state that…although conservative is generally characterized by

that, uh, perspective. I have never encountered a teacher or class where they were

the first kids, where the teachers grappled, where the peers grappled. And they are

now tenth and eighth grade, and they’ve NEVER been hassled. They’ve been

queried. Some kid in my older daughter’s 7th grade class was talking about gays,

and…and she just stood up and said, “Well, my parents are gay, and they’re a lot of

fun!” And, that was the end of that. But, what we are, those of us who have chosen

the parenting route, through whatever means, we are UBERparents, Your Honor,

we…excuse me.

(CONGREGATIONAL LAUGHTER)

BISHOP:

Great.

PERSON #4:

Well, and I didn’t mean to. I mean…I mean, we are soccer coaches, we are Sunday

school teachers, we are neighborhood association presidents, we are present vestry

wardens, we are KILLIN’ ourselves because we didn’t fall into being parents. We

had to go to some considerable effort, no matter which way we became parents, and

risk some serious social opprobium both for ourselves and our children to get there,

and that is why I think that if you were 16 years old today and you wound up in this

chair, however many years that’s forward…you would be saying to yourself, “What

WAS that all about?” _____’s parents are just fine! But, sadly, those of us who

chose to live a family life, whether a couple or parents, we’re subject to the culture

of contingency, which is the toxin, in my view, in our society. And, that means

everything is contingent. My, my promise to you to live in a covenant committed

relationship is contingent. If I’m not happy, I am entitled to go find happiness. If it

isn’t working, it is my job, my responsibility to myself to go find something that

works. And, thus, marriages are contingent. Being a parent is contingent, and our

whole society suffers. I agree with a conservative author, the article of whose I could

not find, who said that conservative Christians, rather than opposing gay marriage,

should be insisting upon it. You, if you are, and I can include you, are that group

indeed, should be insisting that those of us who undertake to share life with one

another, and certainly to rear children with one another, be bound by the same

legal and moral obligations. To stick with our promises, to put aside (and I’m not

talking about alcoholism, abuse and the extreme cases), but they should be insisting

that gays and lesbians take on the legal, financial, personal and spiritual

responsibility of MARRIAGE. Of Standing in front of their community and looking

at each other and saying, “I make you this promise.” And, that’s what my friends

and colleagues here and all over the country are asking, we’re asking that you

consider, at least, the…that point of view. That we have something to bring. And,

really, all we have to bring is normalcy. 2 people, 2 kids. I mean, one, it’s a joke

that’s been around the community for years is: “My G__, if they don’t want us to

have sex, they should encourage us to have kids.” Let us have kids! You know. I

have two more vignettes, and then I will pass it on. Several years ago a man named

_____, who would be now my age cohort, moved here to Albuquerque from

Minnesota. He had been active in the gay community there, and Minneapolis has a

large gay community, along the lines of other big cities, New York, San Francisco

and so forth. He moved here just for personal, economic reasons. And, after he was

here and he joined this parish, he went back to Minneapolis for yet another funeral

of yet another one of his friends who had died from AIDS. And, _____, if you could

see him, if he were standing here next to me, you would not look at a rabble-rouser.

You would look at an overweight, effusive violin player. And he said to Brian, “I

blame the Church in some part for this. If the Church had ever sanctioned and

supported committed, monogamous, long-term relationships,…if that door had been

open to us, a lot of us would have walked through it. THAT door was shut and

locked. So the only thing open to us was rampant promiscuity. They won’t let us

take on the obligations and the privileges of monogamy; here we go.” And, HIS

friends died by the score. And I think my personal feeling, (of course I’ll leave

Brian to speak for himself) is that that was a little epiphany, or epiphanette for

Brian, and at that time, my partner and I knew ALL the gay people in the parish,

because we were it! Uh, yeah. Not anymore! So, I’d like you to keep that

perspective in mind, too…that when the Church and the country as a whole, closes

that door, it does create a culture in which the kind of behavior that we, as

Christians, should ABHOR, is fostered. And my final point is that when my kids

were about 5 and 7, there was our little pathetic Albuquerque gay pride parade, and

by that time they knew _____ and _____, and they knew some other people

from the church, and our approach was always to make it clear…was that this was

not THEIR issue, it was OUR issue. But, that we were a family, and so to that

extent it’s a family issue. So, I asked them if they wanted to go to this parade, and

they’re little kids! Naturally they wanted to go to a parade. And when it

came to marching, my little daughter who was rather shy asked, so I said, “If

everybody’s comfortable, then we do it. If everybody’s not comfortable, then we

don’t do it.” So, we joined up with the St. Michael’s group and, being a gay pride

parade, it had a little bit of a festival aura to it. And, so we did march a little ways

down Central, and my older daughter who was no more than 7 years old said, “You

know, Mom? Marching is how women got to vote.” And she said, “Maybe, ….oh”,

and then she didn’t say anything else. And, that was the end of that. And a little bit

later she said, “Do you think it will help, Mom? Do you think it will make a

difference?” And I’m still waiting to be able to answer that question for her.

And, I came here tonight, even though I’m in the midst of a trial right now, which

you can tell from my lapsing into my professional jargon, because I thought that if I

had the chance to move one person in this mammoth institution, one micro-inch, I

can’t not do it, so that’s why I’ve come and spoken to you tonight. Thank you.

(CONGREGATIONAL APPLAUSE)

MODERATOR:

Thank you, _____.

BISHOP:

May I?

MODERATOR:

Yes, Your Honor. Go ahead.

BISHOP:

A brief response to one thing you said that, about, uh, if only the Church would

have sanctioned the institution, that it would have prevented, uh, promiscuous

activity. That doesn’t work; I mean the institution of marriage in the traditional

sense has not been successful, obviously, in, in helping our young people to order

their sexuality. I mean, I mean it’s just, it’s, you know, obvious that they knew that

marriage was down the road, but you go to a college campus today, and it’s sort of

an irrelevance for them, you know? They don’t, and I tell you that in my work as a

priest, and now as a bishop, that the most difficult thing for me. I don’t stay awake

at night worrying about gay and lesbian relationships. I worry just about sustaining

heterosexual marriage relationships, especially amongst my clergy. And, I find,

that’s for me…the big heartbreak. I don’t, I don’t think it’s a matter of having,

umm, a right or an institution, it’s a matter of people ordering who they are, and,

you see where I am coming from…?

PERSON #4:

I completely appreciate your perspective, and I think I might have spoken too

simplistically, I didn’t mean to suggest that _____ or HIS friends would have all

married, stayed, you know, monogamous, and so forth, and I don’t think when he

said that to Father Brian…Father Brian, am I remembering that comment basically

the right way? But I think what he said was that the absence of that option, so that

those of us here, who in SPITE of everything, made a covenant between each other.

If that option had been available MORE, faith-based, conservative values, and I know _____

himself and _____, like many of his friends, would have gone through that door.

And your comment about worrying about shoring up the institution of marriage, to

me dovetails with my comment that married people need to, we ALL need to take on

those obligations and feel the weight of the decision when we say “I’m out of here!”

You know, married people HAVE to, not only legally, but in the terms of their

community, and, and my gay and lesbian colleagues here, have become all too

accustomed to, especially when we were younger, in our 20’s, to the

serial monogamy, and I’m with this person for a while, and I’m with that

person for a while, and I think that if the institution of marriage were open and

required of those of us who undertook to embrace each other for life, it would

mitigate against the very problem. That’s just an opinion that I shared. I have a

cartoon on my refrigerator where these very urbane women are looking at each

other, and one of them says to the other, “Gays and lesbians getting married isn’t a

threat to the sanctity of my marriage; it’s all the straight women who sleep with my

HUSBAND!”

(CONGREGATIONAL LAUGHTER)

MODERATOR:

Thank you, _____. Now, let me just say because all these points are very important,

and I, I would like us to have a very open kind of, of process to allow EVERYONE

an opportunity to express themselves, and so, so I have avoided trying to time their

presentations, you know. That’s okay, you made some very wonderful points. Now,

let me just ask you, because we ARE gonna run out of time, I would just like to ask

you to please kind of be considerate of the time that you take, so that plenty of

people can have a chance.

PERSON #5:

I have, I have another area that I would like to make a statement on, and that’s

about the Episcopal Church, and I’m a cradle Episcopalian, and I‘ve been married

for 56 years, and I’m a mother and a grandmother, and I owe no allegiance to the

Archbishop of Canterbury or the primates of other countries. If they don’t condone

the Episcopal Church in this country and our openness to all of God’s children and

want to remove us from the Anglican Communion, that’s their problem. It won’t

upset me at all, because I accept the authority of the Presiding Bishop and the

General Convention. Thank you.

(massive) CONGREGATIONAL APPLAUSE.

BISHOP:

Well, I would like to, uh, congratulate you for being in the majority position. Not

just tonight, but also obviously in the House of Bishops as well, you would have

been, you would have joined the majority on that, on that view. And, uh, that’s, for

me, intensely painful. Because, I…I tell you, I didn’t, I grew up in a different

tradition, I grew up as a…in the Evangelical Free Church, which was a Lutheran, a

free Lutheran kind of a tradition. And, when I was in college, I chose the Episcopal

Church intentionally because I thought, I thought…I chose it because of this

worldwide structure based on communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury, I

thought that that’s the visible thing that made us a truly catholic church. And, for

me, the intense pain…maybe, maybe my pain is as intense as your pain in other

areas. My intense pain is that, ummm, I realize I am now serving the church that’s

going in a very, very different direction than the church I thought I was joining

when I was ordained. And, uh, you know, I don’t know what else to say, but you

know, I bless you all, and I pray that God would bless that, wherever the Episcopal

Church is going in this, that God will bless it and use it in some way. But, it…it’s

NOT my church anymore! So, I just, you know, I’m just speaking as honestly and

openly as I can. I’m not the kind that, you never have to look the other way, and

worry if I’m gonna, you know, slip the Diocese of the Rio Grande out of the

Episcopal Church. I’m not gonna DO that. I don’t believe that’s my job, or my

right. This Diocese was created by the Act of the General Convention, and it

BELONGS to the Episcopal Church. But, I do say that for me, and I’m sure for

many in this Diocese, what is happening is…is a terrible loss for us, and we feel cut

off from a catholic life that we valued and enjoyed. So, you gave a great speech. I

want to thank you for that. And, umm, it…I had the same feeling when you guys all

cheered that I did in the House of Bishops in March, when Katherine Grieb from

Virginia made a similar speech, and got a rousing ovation from the House of

Bishops. And, I just…but, just on the affective level on which we all live, where you

all rejoice in that, to me it’s a dagger in the heart. So, that’s my…I’m gonna share

that…that point.

MODERATOR:

Thank you for being honest.

PERSON #6:

Yes, Bishop. My name is _____.

MODERATOR

Walk to the microphone, _____.

PERSON #6:

And, I’m fairly new to the Episcopal Church, raised Roman Catholic, left the

Catholic Church because of a lot of their beliefs.

BISHOP:

Because of?

PERSON #6:

Of THEIR beliefs. My question to you is where do you see the people going

at this point when the Church is supposed to be the Guide , the openness, the

understanding that we’re all human? And every time, my…at least with my

feelings, every church that I have been to in the past, and I have gone to all of

them…I still feel that rejection that I am not part of ANYthing! And, my question

to you is: How can the Church expect all of us to pick up the Cross, and carry the

Cross, and move forward, when we are constantly being condemned, crucified and

told we don’t belong? So, how do you feel, where do you see all of us fitting in, to

MAKE a difference?

BISHOP:

Thank you.

I just, I brought only ONE text with me tonight, and it’s one of the most unpopular

texts in this church: Lambeth Resolution 110. This was passed in 1998. This is the

resolution that seems to have started us down this road that, that we are on right

now. And, one of the, a lot of people think that the Lambeth Resolution is about

condemning gay and lesbian people. But tonight, for instance, is the fulfillment of

one of the elements in this resolution, that asks us to recognize in the life of the

Church, the presence of “people who experience themselves as having a homosexual

orientation. Many of these are members of the Church and seeking the pastoral

care, moral direction of the Church, and God’s transforming power for the living

of their lives, and the ordering of their relationships. We commit ourselves to listen

to the experience of homosexual persons, and we wish to assure them that they are

loved by God, and that all baptized, believing and faithful persons, regardless of

sexual orientation, are full members of the Body of Christ.” So, though there is

a lot of screaming and yelling out there “on the right” about this, I mean, that is the

position that we, that, you know, the whole Anglican Communion is committed to.

Now, I think, I think that the clergy, and Father Brian and I have had many talks

about this, and I am immensely grateful to him for his support and his kindness in

this. It, it appears that we ARE heading toward a situation where it’s going to be

difficult for us to live together. Because what many…many are asking in the

Episcopal Church is…is going to be a bridge too far in terms of people who desire to

live within an orthodox catholic or evangelical framework. And, somehow, I think

we are going to have to find a way to bless each other and recognize that, umm,

we’re living in a time when there are mighty social and cultural movements that,

that are coming right into the life of the Church. It’s a tragedy, because this is not

the Anglicanism that we loved and knew. We…the whole pastoral dimension of

Anglicanism is that it’s a big tent, and it is a genuinely inclusive place, for people of

all sorts and conditions. But, the problem is that people are, are wanting to,

well…I’m gonna stop there, because I think it won’t come out right.

I’m not going to go any further with it. I just wanna say that…that I sense, in my

prayers I sense that we’re at a point where we have to accept that we are going to

have to bless each other and move in different directions. I don’t mean that as a

threat, I don’t mean that as any kind of an announcement, that…but you know,

we’re…unfortunately, there is a kind of a re-alignment going on in American

Christianity, and I think it’s just a huge movement, and the Episcopal Church

has been actually remarkably slow in being affected by it, because we are…

PERSON #7:

Forgive me, Bishop.

BISHOP:

Yeah, please! Go ahead.

PERSON #7:

But our time is limited, and from the dawn of time…even before the Bible was

written, we have been listening to people like you.

BISHOP:

I’m sorry; I can’t hear you. It’s hard to hear.

PERSON #7:

From the dawn of time, even before the Bible was written, we have been listening to

people like you. It’s important for YOU folks to listen to US. We have very limited

time, apparently, tonight. You should be asking US questions, instead of us asking

YOU questions. It’s pretty important for YOU to listen to US. We pretty much, I

think, know where you all are coming from…we’ve got your writings, and so forth,

so I’d really like to this group to get more focus on us presenting things that WE

need to talk about in and about OUR lives to YOU. And obviously, you have a very

closed mind with all this, but…I think that there’s a chance…

BISHOP:

How come you’re not sitting here, and I’m down there?

Well, I’m sitting right here.

PERSON #7:

Well, like _____ said, that maybe we can move something, an itty-bitty

millimeter, perhaps. Perhaps this is just an exercise in pure futility. But, honestly,

we are not here to listen to you.

(CONGREGATIONAL MURMUR)

PERSON #7:

Well, we have…we have…OKAY! You’ve got until 8:30. We have listened to these

folks forever. THEY need to listen to US. This is our chance!

MODERATOR:

Get to the microphone, _____.

PERSON #8:

I’d like to speak for…what I want to hear from the Bishop, and if others don’t,

that’s fine, is…a little more refinement on the catholic orthodox tradition that you

feel you must cling to. Is what you’re really saying that you cannot accept that

homosexuality is not wrong?

BISHOP:

I believe…I believe…

MODERATOR:

It’s fine, _____.

BISHOP:

No, no, no! I understand, and I take the rejoinder that I shouldn’t talk so much. I

believe that God created sexuality principally to procreate the human race. And, in

that sense, in that sense, umm…I think ALL of us have fallen short of the purposes

of God. I think that the criticism might even mainly be directly toward

heterosexual couples, that abuse the gift of sexuality, and turn it to their own end,

and to their own pleasure, and not for the purpose that God created it. That’s…I

DO believe in love. Love is a good thing. Sex is principally for bringing the next

generation into the world.

MODERATOR:

Thank you. Just a moment. Could we go over here?

BISHOP:

Oh, okay.

I thought she’d been waiting for a while. Go ahead.

PERSON #9:

My name is _____, and as a mother of 6, grandmother of 13, and great-

grandmother of 3…, I would like to say I want our church to focus on loving each

other, NOT whether…not your sexual orientation, NOT who has been shamed

more. I am divorced! I went through things, too. I mean, everyone goes through

certain periods. Our church is for us to join and worship our LORD, to love one

another, to respect, and to respect our differences. Thank you.

BISHOP:

Thank you.

PERSON #10:

My name is _____, I grew up as a Baptist, so I know the Protestant tendency

to schism that pains you in your roots. When I was 8 years old, I was in a church

that split, and I have abhorred schism ever since! I am too sacramental not to be a

Catholic, I am too Trinitarian not to be Orthodox, and I believe in the Good

News of God in Christ, so I think I am evangelical, and by my pronunciation,

you KNOW I come from those roots. But, I grew up feeling wrong, condemned and,

at best, somehow developmentally retarded, until I came to accept who I am as

God’s gift. David Linz has an icon of Steven Biko that, holding a scroll that says

“Begin to think of yourself as a human being,” and I think that what is happening in

the Anglican Communion and in the Church at large is that gays and lesbians have

begun, at long last, to think of themselves as human beings. And, by that I mean not

defective, not abnormal, not substandard, not deviant, but full human beings. And

when we say that gays and lesbians are FULL MEMBERS in the Church, then we

say, then we have the…not the right in terms of civil rights, but the theological

spiritual right to be who we are and to participate fully. That is a problem for many

people. I feel that whenever any kind of Communion is broken, it is tragic. But, I

have already, as you know, been excommunicated by several provinces of the

Anglican Commuion, DE FACTO. And, uh, so I’m ALREADY excommunicate. If I

were to go to several provinces in Africa, I would not be given Communion. If Peter

Ackinola were to come to the grail at St. Katherine’s Church in Oakland, I would

GIVE him Communion, with great personal difficulty, but I’m not going to turn

around and excommunicate those who wish to excommunicate ME. However, I do

claim my heritage. And, uh, since you are a patristic scholar, you may remember

which one of the early Church fathers said that before every human being, goes

forth ten thousand angels, proclaiming, “Make way for the image of God!” I forget

which one.

BISHOP:

One of the Greek fathers said it!

PERSON #10:

Undoubtedly! And, if we are all in the image of God, that means that every one of

us has ten thousand angels making that proclamation, and I don’t see any reason to

renounce our being in Christ.

(CONGREGATIONAL APPLAUSE)

BISHOP:

Thank you.

PERSON #11:

Does this thing work? I’ll start with a confession. I’ll confess that I am a lifelong

Episcopalian. Now I feel better. I’ve enjoyed about 34 years of married life, and I

have an oldest brother who’s been married since the 1960’s, and I have a middle

brother who’s gay. I’ll tell you about an incident. The year is 1955, I’m 10 years of

age, we are in a townhouse in Los Angeles, my father’s an attorney, and he has a

case down there. My brother comes running into the room and told me this:

“Did you know the new swimming pool has a new water observation window?”

I said, “No!”

“Did you know there’s a young lady diving from the top of the diving board, and

every time she dives in, the top of her bikini comes off, every time?”

I said, “Where is this place?”

And, I went running down there, and she never did oblige me by showing up. My

brother was totally disinterested in what he saw. Bishop, I don’t share your

sentiments with regard to sexuality in a marriage. To me, it is a very special

form of communication. And it CAN be sexual. Sometimes it is. That’s a very

Western opinion. It is a very special form of communication. I believe what I tell

you to be true, so how can I look at my brother and tell him that he cannot enjoy

what I can enjoy because he is different than I am? I can’t do that! This isn’t just

about gay people or lesbian people. This is about those of us who have loved ones

who are gay or lesbian, and we want what’s good for them. Thank you.

(CONGREGATIONAL APPLAUSE)

PERSON #12:

My name is _____, and I’m a lifelong Episcopalian, and I hate to tell you this, but I

don’t think you’re doing your job right. And, when I’m in my job, I get told when

I’m not doing it right. I get told by the people I serve, and by my boss. I don’t

always agree with the policies and procedures that I have to enforce every single

day, but it’s my JOB. And, you admit that you didn’t, you’re NOT a lifelong

Episcopalian, you have different views and opinions. So I think you’re in the

wrong JOB! I think, my family…I’m upset that the Church is gonna split, and I

can’t go to Church with my family. I think it’s your job to pull this Diocese

TOGETHER, to make the people…there are a lot of people that are lifelong

Episcopalians that want to worship with our FAMILIES, and I think it’s your job

to listen to us and what we’re feeling, and bring that to the other conservative

people out there that have never MET a lesbian or gay person. Thank you.

(CONGREGATIONAL APPLAUSE)

PERSON #13:

Yes. I’m _____. I think it’s even possible that you might remember me.

BISHOP:

I do!

PERSON #13:

Anyway, I am very familiar with the idea that some people have that sex is only for

reproduction. In fact, that was a very strong idea in the Church in the fourth

century. At one time in many areas sex was considered to be improper, even

between people who were married, unless it was for the PURPOSE of reproduction.

If it was not for the purpose of reproduction, but they did nothing to prevent

reproduction, it was a very considered to be a sin, but one that could be forgiven.

On the other hand, if they did anything to PREVENT reproduction, it was very

serious and could NOT be forgiven. Now, I don’t think that anyone can really

believe that today, because here are the consequences. That would mean that before

people got married, they would need to have a medical examination to determine

whether they were CAPABLE of reproduction. If they’re not, they wouldn’t be

permitted to get married! Also, they would be required to have as many children as

possible! Also, if they married for a couple of years, and didn’t have any children,

then they would be in danger of being excommunicated! We’re not gonna treat

people that way. It would also mean, let’s suppose that a widow, who’s 50, and a

widower, who’s 50, they decided to get married, that would not be permitted,

because they couldn’t have children. There is no way that doctrine can be enforced

in any consistent fashion nowadays. Perhaps in the fourth century, when people

had a life expectancy that was much lower, it could be, but even then I doubt it

could be consistently enforced. I just don’t think it’s gonna fly.

(CONGREGATIONAL APPLAUSE)

BISHOP:

Well, of course the question is being open to the gift of life. That’s what I meant to

say. And, remember where we’re going, by God’s grace, to Heaven, where there

won’t BE marriage and sexuality. This is something just for this part of the

journey…of the soul.

PERSON #14:

I wasn’t raised Episcopalian, I was raised Roman Catholic, and I had a lot of

troubles with not being able to “dial direct” to God. But, I’m very grateful that

there is a place for my daughter to come, and as a family we can worship at this

church, and I’m very, very grateful to Father Brian for that. I grew up, when I

grew up, I had…there are 5 daughters…the 5 kids, and when my mom was

pregnant with my…with my sister _____, the doctor said, “This is your boy,” “This

is your boy,” and she was a girl! And then, when I was, when my mom was

pregnant with ME, the doctor said, “This is your BOY! For sure, _____, I can tell!

It’s different. The heartbeat is different.” And again, I was a girl. Somehow, that

doctor KNEW we were different. Before we were even born, that doctor KNEW we

were different than my other sisters who are straight.. And, so I know God didn’t

make a mistake there, because the doctor even knew…these two were different! I

know my mom was very disappointed…but I also, having been raised Catholic, and

I loved to bug my mom so much, I was so disrespectful to her just because of that.

But, I remember the Song of Solomon, and the Song of Solomon is about love, it is

about sex, it is about marriage, and it’s very much what the other man was talking

about. It’s a special kind of communication, and I think it’s a kind of

communication that GOD asks US to have with HIM1 And, I remember one time,

and my Mom was totally appalled at me! I said, “Mom, you’re right! You’re right!

I said, “Mom, this is sex! Communion is SEX! This is the Bride and the

Bridegroom; we’re getting together!” And, she was totally appalled! But it’s

because of her bringing me up in terms of cherishing yourself and your sacredness

that I believe that. But it’s because of the sacredness of that, that sex is

NOT just for reproduction, sex is really a way to communicate; and I think it’s

GOD’s way of showing us how to communicate with GOD, because it’s very

different and so much deeper than any other communication, than speaking.

And so, I just feel like, I just wanted to say that I , for myself, am so grateful that

there is a place for my daughter, and she’s not the best about coming, but there is a

place for her here at this church. And, I know that there are other people who

and I mean, I didn’t go to church for years, and I had gone through the whole

charismatic renewal in the Catholic Church, and then I find myself at prayer

meetings praying for the wrong things? And, people would look at me like,

“Does she have to pray for THAT?” And, so I stopped going! And then I came

HERE, mainly because my partner was pregnant with my daughter, and I wanted

her to believe, I wanted her to know that, I wanted her to know GOD in a sexual

kind of way, in that sexual way of knowing God. In that special way of KNOWING

God, which is only possible for humans in a sexual way. I want her to hear and

experience the Word of God in a REAL WAY, and she’s able to here. That’s all I

have to say.

BISHOP:

Thank you.

PERSON #15:

Bishop, my name is _____, and I grew up in a small United Methodist

Church in Indiana, we’d go to an hour of church, an hour of Sunday School, an

hour of service, an hour of youth group, an hour of evening church, and then a

weekday midservice, so it’s been a part of my blood. I’m a graduate of Wheaton

College in Illinois.

BISHOP:

Wheaton?

PERSON #15:

Yeah, Wheaton, Illinois. Billy Graham’s school. What has concerned me over a

number of years as this conversation continues is knowing that in the past,

separations have happened over the dual essence of Christ, whether the Holy Spirit

came FROM the Father and the Son. And, we’re left today with this kind of office

water cooler talk about who slept with whom last night. And, I would appreciate

NOT continuing to be the scapegoat of the conversation, and have it raised to the

level, I think, of your office, and of the clergy, and of the Church to talk about a real

issue of how we understand the Bible, because I interpret it very differently, I

assume, than YOU do, and to just pinpoint sex as THE ISSUE really cheapens the

conversation.

Thank you.

(CONGREGATIONAL APPLAUSE)

BISHOP:

I’ll clap for that.

PERSON #16:

Good evening, Bishop. My name is _____. I’m a member of the Cathedral. I’ve

been attending the Episcopal Church since before I was born.

(CONGREGATIONAL LAUGHTER)

My first recollection of putting together homosexuality and the Church and faith:

hearing Anita Bryant and her campaign in the ‘70’s in Florida. And I remember

seeing the signs, the first one that still strikes me, is “Adam and Eve, not Adam and

Steve.” And I got to wondering, from hearing all these conversations, fairly one-

sided, about what the Bible says about gay people, and about what it says about

homosexuality, and looking back on the 13 or 14 years of my church attendance,

and listening as diligently as I could to the lectionary read every single Sunday. I

don’t recall ever hearing ANYTHING from the lectern regarding gay people

or homosexuality or ANY such thing. So, I figured I’d go take a look for

myself. Looked it up in my concordance, didn’t see anything about gay, didn’t see

anything about homosexuality. So I went back to my Bible, and so I figured it’s in

there SOMEPLACE. So I started to read, starting from the beginning, and about

18 months later, wound up with “Amen” at the end. And I found all the

nasty passages, “Thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, it is an

abomination.” I put that together with Jesus’ admonition, “If you look at a woman

lustfully, you’ve already committed adultery with her in your heart.” And assumed

that my thoughts and understanding as an early adolescent, I was basically going to

Hell. The only thing I could do at that point was to PRAY. And, for the next ten

years, pretty much every night, I prayed: “Please, God. Take this sin away from

me. I DON’T want to be gay. It’s not anything *I’ve* chosen. Take it away.”

Eventually, though I stopped, at some point, the energy failed, and I stopped

praying the prayer. It wasn’t being answered…what’s the point? I continued my

prayers for other people. I continued my conversation with myself, walking to and

fro, talking to myself and of course, Somebody Else was obviously listening in. I

came to some conclusions through what I think was fairly rational conversation,

even with myself. I didn’t choose to be gay. It’s not something that I sat down and

said, “OK. I want this. I’m gonna do this.” On the contrary! I don’t know HOW

I’m gay; I don’t know if it’s a hormonal thing in utero or genetic or some trauma in

my childhood; it doesn’t really make any difference. As a…what I believe is that I

am a God-fearing person. I believe there are two influences on my life: (1) those

decisions that I make; I choose to walk this way, or I choose to walk this

way. And (2) those things that God presents to me. Sometimes it’s the choice of

those two paths; sometimes it’s no choice at all. I have a responsibility to ultimately,

it’s given those choices that God presents, it’s my choice then, which path I take. If

I didn’t choose to be gay, I don’t have any control over what somebody might have

done to me, I was molested or something. Then…if I didn’t have a choice

in a hormonal imbalance or genetic makeup. If it wasn’t ME, it HAD to be God

that made me gay. I took that conclusion, coupled it with what I already knew,

what I’d been taught from the very beginning. God created everything, and it was

very good. God created me, God created everything good. Therefore, *I* must be

good. Now, coming around in another angle, my parents were remarkably open

talking about sex and love for people of their generation, frankly. I was taught very

clearly and blatantly sex is good; sex is one of THE most exquisite, beautiful, perfect

expressions of love that there is. Love. It’s also useful for reproduction, but it’s

love. It’s not THE most perfect form we’re taught; giving one’s life for one’s

brother is a higher form of love. But it’s definitely up there in the top 3, in my

opinion. That’s what this is about…is LOVE. How we express it is…covers a wide

variety of things, but that what this is about. I came to this conclusion in a

roundabout way: I’m gay; God made me gay; God made me good; I am good; sex is

good. This is how I finally came to an understanding; a peace with God, if you will.

This is who I am; this is what God made me, and it’s my responsibility to do the

RIGHT THING with what He gave me. Some number of years later, after I “came

out” and started sharing my new life, my transformed life with people, I had that

spiritual 2 x 4 that we all really kind of pray for. God had answered my prayer

after all! My prayer: “Take this sin away from me?” He demonstrated to me

through this logic, guided by Him, that being gay, and by extension, acting gay in a

RESPONSBILE manner, is NOT a sin. Yes, I am a sinner…I can’t even begin to

count HOW I sin, just like the rest of us here. But, THIS aspect of me is NOT a sin.

Furthermore, and I’ll wrap it up with this, because…it’s more than just a, more

than just seeking my own pleasure, seeking my own needs, I feel a DIRECT call

from God to love my husband, to enter into a relationship with him, to care for him,

to nurture him, to tuck him into bed at night when he’s too weak and ill to do it for

himself. To be his ADVOCATE when there is no one else around to do it FOR him.

God is saying, “This is your JOB to do this!” Just as much as it is your job and

Debbie’s job to do it for each other. It’s MORE than just sex. It’s all about love.

And, we have a right in GOD’s justice to have that blessed by our community and

by our church as much as anyone else does.

MODERATOR:

Thank you, _____.

BISHOP:

_____, I just wanted to respond really briefly to that, what you just shared.

Thank you very much for it. It is clearly the relationships that we talked about, are

…are very complex things. They’re very, there is so much in people’s relationships

with each other that is holy and worth celebrating, and I hope I am as sensitive and

perceptive about that, and recognize the truly heroic and grace-filled elements of

those relationships …the only thing about the syllogism that you worked out, is that,

is that, ummm, that’s all fine and good. I’ve never tried to say how a person is,

anything to question about whether it was a choice or not. But, we believe in the

Church that the sacramental things that we celebrate are the things that Jesus

Christ sanctioned. And, when He talked about the sacramental union in marriage,

it was between a man and a woman, and that’s all the given-ness of the tradition

that we have to deal with. And, just because we try to live by it, or I try to live by it

in my own way, as a minister of the Church, I don’t intend for that to be a judgment

against gays and lesbian people. I don’t intend that to be a judgment against the

relationships.

MODERATOR:

Thank you.

PERSON #17:

Good evening, Bishop. The gentleman who spoke before me, I think that was a

miracle in my case, said a lot of what *I* meant to say FOR me, so that makes it

easier for me to be real brief with you. How it ties into my case, I’ll get into that

in a minute. My name is _____, by the way. I grew up as a confirmed Lutheran,

and others phrased it more delicately before me, but I have “bounced around”

pretty much all of the standard Christian denominations in my walk, and that goes

beyond the issue of just “coming out of the closet,” which I did in Austin, by the

way. This occurred shortly after what I will claim to be a bona fide experience of

the Holy Spirit for me, and after having experienced several words of knowledge

and/or wisdom. I know you know, because you are on the theology committee, I’m

sure you know that it is sometimes pretty tough to “split the hairs.” When I was

praying that prayer, I kept having PETER’S dream, “Kill and eat,” “kill and

eat.” And I kept praying the SAME THING HE [previous speaker] did, and I kept

gettin’ the SAME DREAM, and it didn’t stop! I know it was in the Scripture, but I

didn’t remember it initially, until I finally accepted myself as the true child of God

that I am, the fact of the child of God that I am in our Lord Jesus Christ, and the

member of the Body of Christ that I am in Christ’s Church, just as you are. That’s

who I am; that’s who I believe probably everybody in this ROOM, including

yourself, right now, is. I did want to make a brief comment about what you said

about the procreation issue also, because I’m sure you’re aware of the fact from

your OLD Testament studies, and if you have any Jewish friends, as I do…there

was a time that the married couples in that society, and it was almost superstitious,

believed that if they were childless, somehow God’s blessing was missing or had

eluded them!

HERE ENDS THE TRANSCRIPT, FOR HERE ENDS THE AUDIO